general conclusion= Big guys+Piling On=Unbalanced

Dragoonkin · Post by **Dragoonkin** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:41 pm

Well, some people have said add up to ST4, but I think that's a bit high.

I suppose it's one of those decisions that's falling between "Game Balance" and "Realism". Just like Interceptions.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:59 am

Declaring before sucks even with ST5. If you're e.g. blocking an AV7 player, you'll be going down needlessly almost 48.5% of the time! Remember, if you would have passed armour without piling on, using the skill has only a negative effect, and nothing positive associated with it.

So, a piling on ST5 mighty blow player has a 51.5% chance of the skill helping him pass armour at the cost of ending up on the ground, and a 48.5% chance that the skill only makes him go to the ground and doesn't help him the slightest bit.

It's really not that good of a skill if declared prior, even for a big guy. You just need to try it out, then you'll all believe me.

Post by **Dave** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:31 am

You are the math expert, I beleve you on the numbers .. This only strenghtns my idea. BEFORE the roll please.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:39 am

Dave wrote:You are the math expert, I beleve you on the numbers .. This only strenghtns my idea. BEFORE the roll please.

Actually, you shouldn't trust me so readily. I made a stupid mistake... it's even worse than i said! 56.5% of the time, you go down for nothing, and only 43.5% of the time, there's an upside to go with the downside!

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:58 am

IIRC the only thing that was broken about PO before was the sick combo with Jump Up. Now that's impossible for all the high STR players.

Boss · Post by **Boss** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:58 am

Zombie wrote

Actually, you shouldn't trust me so readily. I made a stupid mistake... it's even worse than i said! 56.5% of the time, you go down for nothing, and only 43.5% of the time, there's an upside to go with the downside!

Zombie ... this is quite inaccurate. Your chance to break AV 7 (without MB, claws, Piling on or anything like that) is 41.67%. To break AV 8 it's 27.78%. To break AV 9 it's 16.67%.

When piling on with a ST 5 player your risc of being on the ground for no reason at all (meaning you would have broken armor anyway OR you fail to break armor, even when using PO). In parenthisis the chance that you are on the ground after piling on AND having failed to break armor.

Vs. AV 7 44.44% (2.78%)
Vs. AV 8 36.11% (8.33%)
Vs. AV 9 33.33% (16.67%)

When piling on with a ST 4 player your risc of being on the ground for no reason at all (meaning you would have broken armor anyway OR you fail to break armor, even when using PO). In parenthisis the chance that you are on the ground after piling on AND having failed to break armor.

Vs. AV 7 50.00% (8.33%)
Vs. AV 8 44.44% (16.67%)
Vs. AV 9 44.44% (27.78%)

When piling on with a ST 3 player your risc of being on the ground for no reason at all (meaning you would have broken armor anyway OR you fail to break armor, even when using PO). In parenthisis the chance that you are on the ground after piling on AND having failed to break armor.

Vs. AV 7 58.33% (16.67%)
Vs. AV 8 55.56% (27.78%)
Vs. AV 9 58.33% (41.67%)

Trust me ... I do this for a living

[/b]

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:26 am

I have to say that this kind of analysis is not what counts. What counts is the use of Piling on en masse by high-ST (4 or 5) players.

That small downside caused by the fact that you have to go down without knowing whether you had to or not is not sufficient to offset the dramatic increase in the probability of causing a casualty.

Granted, the skill would be worse than what it is now, but you cannot deny the tremendous increase in casualty rates that is causes.

For example
Against AV9, the ST5 POn player causes a casualty every 5/36 succesfull knockdowns compared to 1/36 without POn. A fivefold increase in casualties is worth it.

It might not be so visible when only one player has it, but even when declared before the roll, Piling on can still be exploited by a power-gaming approach.

Boss · Post by **Boss** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:33 am

Hey - all I did was crunch the numbers and type it up. I didn't state my opinion on the subject ... I have no objections to Piling On being made a trait and/or having to be declared prior to armor roll... not at all. We houseruled that in my league anyway.

Though - it's not like any teams would really be able to use PO "en-masse" with ST 5 bonus. Only undead and goblins/halflings can buy more than one guy with ST 5.

Bo

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:52 am

Boss wrote: Though - it's not like any teams would really be able to use PO "en-masse" with ST 5 bonus. Only undead and goblins/halflings can buy more than one guy with ST 5.

Bo

Well, Khemri would have a few..
Also, Chaos, lizardman and orc teams could field several ST4 players with PO.

The pact teams can have two BG's and not to mention ogre teams. *shudder*

But if it isto be made a trait, make it a general trait, so all teams can have access to it.

Boss · Post by **Boss** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:06 pm

well we dont play with the experimental rosters, but for the Lizardmen I have to agree that could be quite a bit nasty ...

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:23 pm

So will u change your mind when a Khemri team becomes official? The mini's are made and sold, some roster will become official. Same for the Ogres, although there is no guarantee that pact teams will become official.

Boss · Post by **Boss** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:09 pm

change my mind ? I just made a side note that only few teams get more than one ST 5 guy. I did state that I would have no problem with PO being toned down ... not at all.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:13 pm

sean newboy wrote:So will u change your mind when a Khemri team becomes official? The mini's are made and sold, some roster will become official. Same for the Ogres, although there is no guarantee that pact teams will become official.

There are no guarantees that the Khemri Mummies will start with MB. That makes a big difference.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:47 pm

I dont believe it makes all that much difference, +5 av roll is still quite nice. When i use po, all that matters is that i can take my opponent down a player longer than i am down.

littlemute · Post by **littlemute** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:59 pm

I know this seems tangental, but if you allow star player points for fouling, this might solve the problem.

You've got IGMEOY but your dirty player typically is a crappy lineman or hobgoblin that really isn't better on the pitch than anyone else for scoring, but again, it's a warm body on the pitch, so a coach is wary of fouling while under the eye.

If you gave this crappy lineman, who normally will at BEST get block and maybe tackle or dodge (on doubles), an incentive for self improvement with casualties for fouls, you might see a lot more people taking a chance against the ref, hence more fouling upon big guys (where the incentive is even greater) that pile on.

And, as I've said in another post, the Norse suck enough without nerfing piling on!