He plays like a daemon Act 2 ;)

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 2:02 pm

Thadrin wrote: The problem with creating new teams is that they have to bring something new to the table. I loved Mestari's rugby idea, which I came up with the idea of having as an Albion team. A team based around a group of guys with Dump Off is new to the game. A Brettonian Roster would have to do the same, and I have yet to see a good one that does.

i think that new rosters should always be judged based on two criteria:
1) does teh roster represent a gameplay concept that has already been elaborated in an existing roster?
and
2) does the new roster require any new rules?

if the answer to either question is 'yes' then there is absolutely no need to go forward with this new roster...

creating a roster simply because you want to put a team forward from a hypothetical region of the gameworld not already in play is not enough... it's been stated to death that any human nation can be accurately fielded with the stock roster and unique miniatures, etc and so forth...

rosters which are proposed which contain a set of skills leading to a unique team dynamic and style of play _in the game_ are the only legitimate circumstance for a new roster... and that new roster obviously needs to be evaluated for balance etc...

but what i really hate to see when someone comes up with a new roster is new rules, new skills, etc... if your idea cannot be contained within the existing mechanics and frameworks of the game, then it simply does not belong in the game... i hate seeing any additional rules added to the game which only affect one team as it is, even if they're optional rules for existing teams. adding specific off-roster rules or new skills for a new roster is highly problematic because it is considerably harder to accurately determine the impact upon the "balnce" (if there is any) of the game as a whole, plus i have found that very few effects cannot be simulated within the context of the rules, and those which cannot are more often purely cosmetic or unneccarry than not...

in the specific case of the demon teams, linking them to spellcasters is a double-whammy... you are first required to allow spellcasters into the game, which despite being quite thoroughly tested in tom's league still fails to garner my esteem, and then you need to add the second level of new rules regarding the linkage.

some people seem to like to add complexity and detail to the game's rules burden, i prefer to add detail only to the aestetic and anecdotal aspect of the game... it's a matter of preference i suppose...

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 2:36 pm

Lucien, I read very carefully what you've written, but I'm not sure I've understood everything... So if I've made a mistake due to a language nuance, I hope you'd forgive me.

i think that new rosters should always be judged based on two criteria:
1) does teh roster represent a gameplay concept that has already been elaborated in an existing roster?
and
2) does the new roster require any new rules?

if the answer to either question is 'yes' then there is absolutely no need to go forward with this new roster...

Agree with you, with definitions you gave below.

rosters which are proposed which contain a set of skills leading to a unique team dynamic and style of play _in the game_ are the only legitimate circumstance for a new roster... and that new roster obviously needs to be evaluated for balance etc...

Hum... What in our discussion for dameon rules doesn't sound like something that break your point of view ? with this roster, you should add 4 options (lesser daemons)... More violence (Khorne), more agility (slaanesh), a new sort of defense (nurgle)...

but what i really hate to see when someone comes up with a new roster is new rules, new skills, etc... if your idea cannot be contained within the existing mechanics and frameworks of the game, then it simply does not belong in the game... in the specific case of the demon teams, linking them to spellcasters is a double-whammy... you are first required to allow spellcasters into the game, which despite being quite thoroughly tested in tom's league still fails to garner my esteem, and then you need to add the second level of new rules regarding the linkage.

I agree with you for spellcaster... if not use dwith the whole Tom rule set.. To my mind, it's another game balance than with the only 15 official teams... So that's why I didn't talk about a spellcaster in my (very) modest proposal, and only want to add a mark of chaos, and a new options for players (lesser daemons), that seems to me more in 2K1 rules spirit... Erm, I'm not sure I've understood well whaty you said here

.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 2:39 pm

DaFrenchCoach wrote:why not the chaos warrior ? You would have no problem with foul appearence (an more when chaos warriors from nurgle rotters will be released, cf official website), it should concern only 2 players, Frenzy, it's ok... For Slannesh and Tze..., I don't know enough those ones, but I guess with 2nd edition minis, we could find something nice for them... What about this ? it should be the "little help" i talked below from their deity , doesn't it ?

If the Chaos Warriors were to get a mutation/trait as a starting skill then this would increase there cost even more. Its difficult to get a decent starting roster as it is with them costing 100k. Thats why i didn't suggest any change to them, thats why i thought maybe the Beastmen could be adjusted perhaps. For Slannesh i guess it would be Claw or Hypnotic Gaze, and for Tzeentch perhaps leap or would pro be just too powerful.

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 2:45 pm

And why limit yourself to the Human roster? if that Roster doesn't have what it is you want from your team then there's more than likely one that does.

That said, I always rather liked the idea of differing sorts of Chaos team, as per the old third ed. Rosters. I'd like to see the old Beastman Roster brought back. The Current Chaos Roster could then have the word "Marauder" substituted for "Beastman", and Horns renamed as "Berserk" or similar...seeing as not ALL marauders have horns (having said that, a good number of the old Beastman figs didn't have horns either, especially the Khornate ones. Just because a skill is called one thing doesn't mean you can't call it something else for the sake of gameplay.

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Mon Jul 08, 2002 3:30 pm

DaFrenchCoach wrote:Hum... What in our discussion for dameon rules doesn't sound like something that break your point of view ? with this roster, you should add 4 options (lesser daemons)... More violence (Khorne), more agility (slaanesh), a new sort of defense (nurgle)...

while it is true that you can throw a nuiance into the chaos roster to represent a specific mark or cult, and those twists would give a different chaos team than you had before, does it present something new to the overall game? does it give something balanced in the game?

lets look at them on a per-cult basis, but first, we need to look at chaos in general...

chaos in general is tough, strong, and unskilled.

ok, that's their niche.

in order to modify the chaos roster, you need to do one of two things, add subtle changes that maintain them in that niche, _without granting them additional effectiveness_ or you need to utterly rewrite the roster to pout them in a completely new niche...

so, say you wanted to do a khorne team, you need to add what, more strnegth? that would make them utterly unbalanced... frenzy? that wouldn't balance well either, a team with so much strength, and so many players with horns would gain an untoward advantage by getting a group of frenzy (a trait, mind you!) players off teh bat... for slaneesh you want to add agility? well, that clearly breaks a fundamental rule of team design that says no team can have strength 4 and agility 4 players on the same team... if you added ball-control skills instead of AG, you instead break the niche factor, as this team is supposed ot be unskilled by design.... nurgle, you'd probably want to give them hideous appearance... again, a trait at start, and one that can unbalance a line of strength 4 players... as for tzeench, i've yet to see a compelling explanation of how this cult's powers can be properly represented in the game without huge amounts of kludge....

no, you simply cannot take the existing chaos roster and add in any god-specific factors and still come away with a team which is nothing more or less than " tough, strong, and unskilled"

which is why the train of thought that holds that you can work with the basic roster is flatly incorrect...

no, if you want to create power-flavored rosters for chaos you have to redefine the basic players in addition to finding a way to include balanced demonic players... though i am of the opinoin that the greater demons simply cannot be fielded in an accurate and balanced way...

so, theoretically, if you wanted a chaos cult team, you'd scrap the current chaos team and turn instead to something like:
0-12 cultists 6 3 3 8 50k, G
0 - 4 daemonic players (these would either be lesser demons or champions) which would look a little like:
a khorn champion might be the stock chaos warrior,
a nurgle champion would be like 5 3 3 9, hideous appearance
a slaneesh champion 6 3 4 8 give or take claw, price it out and drop it if the player is over 120k
and a tzeench champion 6 3 3 9 big hand...

something like that... those are the vaguest of suggestions... but they serve to illustrate a point, that you cannot keep the existing chaos roster and add marks to it, that is both unbalanced and unweildy... you have to strip out the beastmen and replace them with stock unskilled humans (either marauders or cultists), and replace the chaos warriors with the "flavor" players... making the base players regular human linemen gives you the ability to make the demonic flavor players pretty much whatever 'type' of players you need (agility, strenght, whaddever) without risking a team that is given both streength and agility, for instance...

in fact, i'd be more likely to support a proposal that made chaos teams based on teh human roster with a different mix of position player maximums and physical trait access than i would a new set of rosters... it worked well enough in 2e...

but all that aside, i still don't see the need for this... you're talking about turning one team into 4 or 5... and what becomes of the existing chaos roster?

no, the new chaos rosters may fulfil the criteria that says you need to bring something new to the game by introducing a roster that starts with a mix of physical traits, but i doubt it will fulfil the balance requirement, and it will never fulfill the "pre-exisiing roster" requirement simply because you still can develop the chaos team as-written into a marked team simply by choosing skills and traits that suit the theme and by painting/converting the team to suit your team's allegance...

and in the end, that is my opinion... you can make a specific-power chaos team with the existing team... no, your team will not start play with powers and abilities that make them fit your intended flavor, but you can play the team into that mold, so you have what you're looking for already in place and therefore there is simply no need to expand the rosters.

sorry.

but it'll be a helluva lotta fun doing the painting and conversion projects...

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 1:06 pm

Hum, all your remarks were very, very valuable... that's what I was expected, BTW

McDeth: About costs, mark of chaos would affect cost of chaos warriors, there's no doubt... but maybe you're right, it should be a bad solution...

Thadrin: having a marauder team sounds great... ANd it should be the solution, due to the fact I can't imagine a beastman without horns (after all, it wouldn't be a beastman in this case

... So why not using for mutations the 2nd edition starplayers (tentacles, foul appearance, ...) ... it should be nice marauders, cause the scale is smaller than chaos warriors... I will take a look on it

Lucien:
you're right about frenzy... I completely forgot the fact beastmen have horns (what a dude

. Same for nurgle: it should unbalance too much the game... but less than frenzy, to my mind.

as said before, slaneesh team is one of my current problem (see JKL advices)... and it's true that adding agility skill access breaks the niche...

no, you simply cannot take the existing chaos roster and add in any god-specific factors and still come away with a team which is nothing more or less than " tough, strong, and unskilled"

Sounds great. You've convinced me !

0-12 cultists 6 3 3 8 50k, G
0 - 4 daemonic players (these would either be lesser demons or champions) which would look a little like:
a khorn champion might be the stock chaos warrior,
a nurgle champion would be like 5 3 3 9, hideous appearance
a slaneesh champion 6 3 4 8 give or take claw, price it out and drop it if the player is over 120k
and a tzeench champion 6 3 3 9 big hand...

hum... I like the idea of cultists (don't know a lot of things about Warhammer world, but sounds like thads suggestion about marauders...)... But in this case (even if I understood it was just a proposal), I don't see any interest for a khorne team: it will be less powerful than a normal chaos team (ie with beastmen, and so horns) ... and slaneesh team still sounds beardie...

in fact, i'd be more likely to support a proposal that made chaos teams based on teh human roster with a different mix of position player maximums and physical trait access than i would a new set of rosters... it worked well enough in 2e...

I don't know if you'd talk about the same thing, but humans of chaos exist in 2nd edition... That's what you talked about ?

no, the new chaos rosters may fulfil the criteria that says you need to bring something new to the game by introducing a roster that starts with a mix of physical traits, but i doubt it will fulfil the balance requirement, and it will never fulfill the "pre-exisiing roster" requirement simply because you still can develop the chaos team as-written into a marked team simply by choosing skills and traits that suit the theme and by painting/converting the team to suit your team's allegance...

and in the end, that is my opinion... you can make a specific-power chaos team with the existing team... no, your team will not start play with powers and abilities that make them fit your intended flavor, but you can play the team into that mold, so you have what you're looking for already in place and therefore there is simply no need to expand the rosters.

So if I understand well, it's not a good idea... Some of your remarks have really convinced me, but I'm sure there should be a place for different chaotic roster teams... Maybe I'm wrong, but it should be a great addition to the game, even if I still don't find the key

take a look on the differences between high elves and wood elves for example. I don't think that if someone would have said when 2nd edition was still available, that it would be a good idea to make 2 different roster teams for elves... but finally, it sounds like 2 really different way of playing a pass/agility game... don't you think ?

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:08 pm

One possibility would be to make an amendment to the chaos warriors ONLY.

Chaos Undivided - 5/4/3/9, no skills, G/ST
Nurgle - 5/4/2/9, Foul appearance, G/ST
Tzeentch - 5/4/3/8, Big Hand, G/ST
Slaanesh - 5/3/4/8, Hypno Gaze, G/ST
Khorne - 5/4/2/9, Frenzy, G/ST

That is: Nurgle and Khorne Champs drop a point of AG for physical abilities. Tzeentch champions drop a point of AV and get a physical ability.
Slaanesh champions gain an AG instead of an ST, and gain a physical ability losing a påoint of AV.

It could then be all warriors must come from one category, or one warrior may be chosen from that list and the rest are all of the "Undivided" type.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:16 pm

I like it.

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:30 pm

careful thads, you're suggesting a team with ag 4 and strength 4... and even if all your warriors were ag 4, you'd still have the beastmen, who would be str4 on a blitz, which is pushing the threshold of the convention...

how about instead you just...

if you're playing a nurgle team, take foul appearance on your first doubles roll
if you're playing a khorne team, take frenzy on your first doubles roll
if you're playing a slaneesh team, take claw on your first doubles roll
if you're playing a tzeench team, take big hand on your first doubles roll...

...and if your players seem to be in no big hurry, there are plenty of skills out htere, you can always direct a team toward a theme consciously...

sure, you might pick a set of skills that are not the "conventional wisdom" like you might not just sit back and take block, mighty blow and dirty player on every single player... you might take tackle (a non-doubles tentacle), sure hands (a big hand, just not _the_ big hand) etc... mutations of a lesser caliber can be improvised from skills, and those details can be worked into the model and into the descriptive mystique of the team...

trust me, i've tried having mark-based teams in my leagues in the past... sure, something can be put together that is balanced and gives you an out-of-the-box instant nurgle feel, but in the end, you just don't need it... a chaos coach with any bit of imagination and even a passing conversion talent can quite easilly use the existing roster to get whatever team they want...

say i wanted a slaneesh team... well, i'd get daemonette models for my beastmen and some suitably-perverse chaos warriors from the archive, a couple of weapon-snips and you're good to go...

a khorne team really doesn't need anything more than the chaos models already out there, but a few extra spikes never hurt anyone (well, they do, but that's the point)

a nurgle team can take a bunch of nurglings, stack them up in roughly human-height piles on a round base, and use these nurgling swarms as "beastmen"... they can use plaguebearer models or plaguemarinmes weapon-snipped, or any other rotting model for the cw's...

and tzeenchers ccan scrounge up some bird heads and put them on human bodies for their beastmen (a beak can hit as hard as a horn, eh)...

etc and so forth...

there's no need to have the differences between chaos teams incorporated into starting rosters... they have all the diversity and access to the "usual" mutations for their cult already built into their normal advancement... any aesthetic diversity that exists is just that, aesthetic... the differrent appearance of the cults has no need to be worked into a roster, it's appearance.... that is an area that is completely independent of the roster itself... that's like trying to argue that the middenheim marauders need a seperate roster from the reikland reavers because one wears red and the other blue...

oh, and while i'm being contrary... if you want a chaos marauder team, you're in luck, it's called the norse roster.

l

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:30 pm

Personally i've always felt that the agility levels of these daemons have historically been to high, a BloodThirster prone to berserk tendencies should only have an Ag of 2 at the most. Plaguebearers likewise. Daemonettes, either there ag should be dropped to 3 and give them dodge, or otherwise make them non-ball carriers. How are they going to carry the ball anyway with those Claws, and Pink Horrors can keep Big hand but drop the movement back to the 6.

So what sort of roster have we got know.

Lets have a look at khorne.

0-4 Chaos Warriors ( Standard at 100k each )
0-2 Bloodthirsters ( Swap 1 for 1 basis for warrior ) 6 4 2 7.
Or do we drop daemons all together and include a Mark of Chaos, where the warrior loses a point of AG and gains frenzy????

For Beastmen or Marauders as were calling them, i feel its wrong to leave them as just standard linemen, makes it a cheap option for including as many warriors or equivalent as possible, so maybe to keep them up to the 60k value, maybe give them Guard instead of Horns ( as frenzy is too powerful ) and only allow them access to Strength skills.

Ok here's my final roster

9 Marauders at 60k each 6 3 3 8 Guard ( Strength and Physical Skills only ) = 540k

1 Chaos Warrior 5 4 3 9 ( General, Strength & Agility Skills ) = 100k

2 Chaos Champions at 100k each 5 4 2 9 Frenzy ( Strength and Physical ) = 200k

2 re-rolls = 140k
FF 2 = 20k.
Total 100k

Ok FF is a little low buit you get my drift.

Or replace Champions with Bloodthirsters as per the normal rules with a drop in Ag back to 2, and possible a decrease in MA to 5.

Thoughts??????

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 2:58 pm

Thoughts??????

If u cant win 80% or more of the time starting with 9 st 3 guards that have ag 3 and mv of 6, u shouldnt be allowed on the pitch at all. This team is way too good. My lizardmen were awesome by the time they had guard and i only had 6 and only one ended up with ag 3. Even the chaos halfling team can be nasty with st 2 guards.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 3:05 pm

Yeah your right guard is probably too strong a starting skill. yet its not even a trait, whereas horns is. maybe no skill, but only access to strength..

or maybe frenzy ( Oh God i'm going around in circles )

think i'll sit back and see if anyone can add anything diff

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 3:27 pm

McDeth wrote:Thoughts??????

see every one of my rambling posts above...

long story short.... we don't need new chaos rosters.

but we do need color-coded base rings

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 3:34 pm

Lucien Swift wrote: long story short.... we don't need new chaos rosters.

interesting topic though.

Now then Chaos allies!!

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Tue Jul 09, 2002 3:35 pm

I still dont see the point of color coded rings, unless u want to come up with a color chart with every skill, trait, and rac. char. available. The fact that a red ring mite mean a blitzer doesnt tell me if the guy has tackle, or piling on, or anything else. When i ask, just do the rite thing and tell me.